IDK all the details with these guys anymore and I know you’ve called for Garrett to be DFA’d now but what happened to this bullpen? I know some injuries but they were supposed to be the strength of this team and they are pretty much the weakest link. I mean, pitching in general is the weakest link now but the bullpen has been so bad and it doesn’t really look like it is going to get better the rest of the year. Not that it matters at this point. But they should trade Barlow….but I can totally see them not…because they see its a dumpster fire and he’s the best option.
It's kind of an odd bullpen. Barlow has been consistently good, even with the hiccup yesterday. Taylor Clarke has been really good for the most part, but that's been sandwiched around a stretch where he was unusable. Jose Cuas has been good, but can't pitch every single day.
But I think it's a combination of injuries and maybe a little bit of growing pains from young pitchers. When Staumont is healthy, he's been solid enough, though a little shaky. But he's hurt. I had my questions about Brentz, but he showed big flashes last year. He's hurt. Gabe Speier was actually pretty good, but got optioned because they needed a fresh arm and there weren't many options. Dylan Coleman has been better than people realize because he walked a ton of guys for a couple weeks. Garrett hasn't been nearly as advertised, but a healthy bullpen of Barlow, Staumont, Brentz, Coleman and Speier wouldn't be bad at all. The problem is that two are hurt and one is in AAA for 15 days because of roster rules. They also were without Payamps (who shouldn't be pitching the ninth but has played a nice role) for awhile. Snider got figured out fast, which stunk because he looked good for a couple weeks.
I honestly don't fully know what the solution is because I think there are pieces in place for a good bullpen in 2023 even if they do trade Barlow, which they should but I agree I don't think they will. I think Coleman does take a step and Staumont would likely still be there. Add in Cuas and maybe Nathan Webb or Will Klein or one of the starters and you start to see a good bullpen in the making. I have thought the bullpen would be a strength for the last few years. In 2020 and 2021, I was right. It wasn't great, but it was good enough. I was wrong this year.
Your observation that Heasley pitched the whole game from the stretch is humorous. I was listening to the radio by that time and when he started scuffling a bit in the 4th, Physioc said it was because he was pitching from the stretch and not the windup for the first time in the game. Good to know we're getting a solid picture of the game from the radio broadcast crew!
Of course he did. I knew they would miss that. I mean, I usually see that stuff and didn't notice it, but then I went back and watched video from his last start and, boom, full windup.
There's one "Phys moment" that has always stuck with me, either because it was so absurdly ludicrous or so ludicrously absurd...
Martin Maldonado had just walked. Nobody else was on base. Lucas Duda, bat in hand, was striding toward the batter's box as the next hitter. At that point, Phys intoned "....and now Kansas City can deploy their speed game...."
I think they pretty much have to start from scratch in the bullpen next year. They need to consider free agents and trades as the system doesn't seem to be producing many relievers as of late. This train wreck of a season is going to wind miserably to it's conclusion. If Eldred isn't fired, the season ticket holders should revolt. What a horrible organization. Surprisingly, they have a nucleus of position players who will eventually be very, very good. The Royals just can't match them with the development of the pitching side. Free agency and trades are the way to go in that area, coupled with a good pitching coach and bullpen coach.
I don't think they have to start from scratch. As I said to Joel above, I think a bullpen featuring Coleman, Staumont, Cuas, Speier and maybe even Jake Brentz is a nice start. I like Nathan Webb in AA, who was added to the 40-man this winter and just got back to the Naturals. Will Klein could be moving up. They have options. That said, I have changed my tune on paying for relievers. I think in today's game, it's a worthwhile investment. Some issue is it's not a great reliever market, but there's still some guys out there.
But yes, dump Cal and whether he's responsible or not, Larry Carter is going to have to go too.
Good points David. Yes, they do have some pieces to start the foundation of a good bullpen, just not enough of them. Relievers are hard to figure out. They can be good one year, horrible the next, and great the year after that. Some guys find it late in their careers when you think they are all done. I saw Brad Boxberger deliver a very good closing performance for Milwaukee yesterday. He stayed calm, cool and collected.
Sure, Boxberger has had a good year. Like I said, there are options out there. There isn't top shelf closer out there, at least as a free agent, but there are some quality pieces. It wouldn't be that surprising for them to have a good bullpen in 2023 with a couple small moves.
Bullpen’s can be drastically different year to year. If its a reliever or a starter for this team to choose from in FA pile….please go after a starter. They got some starter options….but all 3-5 type starter guys.
I mean, this season has gone so far off the rails that next year everything has a to go right…..right?
Trade deadline thought: I'm going full George Costanza and trying to figure out a way to pry Drew Waters from the Braves. Every contender needs bullpen help. The Braves in particular might want an upgrade in the outfield. Might be a match there.
I was doing some work outside and listened to most of the game. I told myself going into the 8th inning with a 3 run lead that if the bullpen walked 1 or fewer the rest of the game we would win and if it was two or more it was an almost certain loss. Sure enough Mills and Garret walk the bases loaded in the 8th, game over. What I don't get is why not start Clarke in the 8th with a clean inning. He was already warmed up in the 7th behind Mills. The walks have just killed the entire pitching staff, but particularly the bullpen.
My guess is they liked the Mills and Pena matchup and then wanted Garrett for Alvarez and Tucker for the lefty on lefty. Obviously that didn't work, but I don't hate the thought process.
JJ with some interesting comments on the radio Tuesday. Directly contradicting Dayton's claim that "we don't shop our guys, ever" JJ said there are five different people in the front office, including himself, who are "aggressively" staying in contact with people they know in the front offices of other teams. The purpose of that contact is to "know what they are thinking," possibly as a precursor to a trade.
David, you have clearly shown that "we don't shop our guys, ever" is an overstatement - and thanks for setting me straight on that point! The question is, how much of an overstatement? We know that they shop guys in their last year of team control. Is that the extent of it? It would be nice to know.
Regarding Jackson Kowar, JJ said that "the pitching coaches at Omaha" did a really nice job of helping him reshape his fastball, fix some mechanical issues, and improve his change-up. Conspicuously absent from JJ's list of people who helped was Cal Eldred. For whatever that might be worth.
The possibility of going to a six-man rotation came up briefly, but it sounded more like idle speculation than anything else.
JJ also said that they are taking a look at Michael Massey at third base in Omaha. The reason he gave was that Nicky and Whit are both so good at second base. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but to me that doesn't sound like a guy who has much interest in trading Merrifield.
They very clearly do shop guys, but it depends on your definition of shop. They definitely overvalue their pieces, so while it may seem like they have never shopped Whit, for example, they have. They've just asked for the moon. The issue with Dayton, in my opinion, in the past is that while they've shopped, they don't tend to negotiate much. It's what they want or it's nothing. I would imagine based on what I know about JJ that if he's calling the shots, that would be different.
I haven't had the chance to listen to JJ's comments yet, but I will later. And I have my doubts about Massey at third because of his throwing arm, but it's worth a try.
For years now, Dayton "loving his own guys too much" has been a recurring theme from several ex-players and media people, some of whom are presumably in pretty good positions to know. (I believe that I first heard that from Mike Boddicker and/or Soren Petro... Or maybe Mike MacFarlane???) Regardless, I really hope you're right about JJ being different in that respect!
That begs an obvious question though: if JJ is different in that way, will it be rendered meaningless because Dayton overrules him anyway?
Or to put it another way: will Dayton permit JJ to make a trade that Dayton himself wouldn't make because he loves his own guys too much?
When the manager takes a gamble on a new pitcher who can't seem to throw a strike and leaves him in until after the Astros beat up on him and score two runs and are in a good position to score more, I'd say that once again, the manager caused the loss.
It's one thing to go 8-7 against a stretch of losing teams. But playing a solid team like Houston shows just how far away the Royals are to being a contender. They keep finding ways to lose. They score six runs in consecutive games and lose both. I'm now of the opinion that they should just trade as many of the veterans as they can (provided they can get something in return) and let the prospects and youngsters play. It certainly can't get much worse. And the offseason priority is to get at least ONE, maybe two experienced starters for the rotation, and an experienced bat who's a legitimate cleanup hitter and can drive in runs, especially in clutch situations. I doubt any of that will happen, but it should.
Watching the first two games of this Houston series got me to reflecting back on 2015. Back then, I believe that the Astros were every bit as good as the Royals. That postseason series could very easily have gone the other way.
Now here we are 7 years later and the Astros are still as good as they were then, and quite possibly better. Meanwhile, the Royals are....well.... the Royals.
If even more obvious proof were required that the Astros way is better, I can't imagine what it could possibly be. Even though we've called up some promising young hitters this year, and there may be a couple more in the pipeline, the question has to be asked: even if all those guys turn out to be everything we hoped for, will watching an endless string of 9-7 losses really be all that much better than what we've suffered through this year?
Or will we be even more frustrated, knowing that we're watching them waste possibly the best years of BWJ and MJ and Vinnie (and maybe others) while we run one AAAA pitcher after another after another out there?
Here's the Royals way: they'll finally acknowledge the immense problems with pitching development and coaching, and barely begin to fix it, just as all those young offensive studs are entering their last year or two of team control. And then another Hosmer-Cain-Escobar-Moose-like exodus will happen over the next couple of years. Meanwhile the Astros will very likely still be kicking ass.
I’m on Dish (for 2 more days), yea, I get to watch the Royals bullpen blow games instead of hearing it on the radio. Listening to game 3 in Houston tonight and had to shut the radio off. Was sick of Pizzer and Stu ramble on with diarrhea of the mouth. They must breathe through their ears because they never shut up. Sorry, I had to get that off my chest. Jerry Gorman
IDK all the details with these guys anymore and I know you’ve called for Garrett to be DFA’d now but what happened to this bullpen? I know some injuries but they were supposed to be the strength of this team and they are pretty much the weakest link. I mean, pitching in general is the weakest link now but the bullpen has been so bad and it doesn’t really look like it is going to get better the rest of the year. Not that it matters at this point. But they should trade Barlow….but I can totally see them not…because they see its a dumpster fire and he’s the best option.
It's kind of an odd bullpen. Barlow has been consistently good, even with the hiccup yesterday. Taylor Clarke has been really good for the most part, but that's been sandwiched around a stretch where he was unusable. Jose Cuas has been good, but can't pitch every single day.
But I think it's a combination of injuries and maybe a little bit of growing pains from young pitchers. When Staumont is healthy, he's been solid enough, though a little shaky. But he's hurt. I had my questions about Brentz, but he showed big flashes last year. He's hurt. Gabe Speier was actually pretty good, but got optioned because they needed a fresh arm and there weren't many options. Dylan Coleman has been better than people realize because he walked a ton of guys for a couple weeks. Garrett hasn't been nearly as advertised, but a healthy bullpen of Barlow, Staumont, Brentz, Coleman and Speier wouldn't be bad at all. The problem is that two are hurt and one is in AAA for 15 days because of roster rules. They also were without Payamps (who shouldn't be pitching the ninth but has played a nice role) for awhile. Snider got figured out fast, which stunk because he looked good for a couple weeks.
I honestly don't fully know what the solution is because I think there are pieces in place for a good bullpen in 2023 even if they do trade Barlow, which they should but I agree I don't think they will. I think Coleman does take a step and Staumont would likely still be there. Add in Cuas and maybe Nathan Webb or Will Klein or one of the starters and you start to see a good bullpen in the making. I have thought the bullpen would be a strength for the last few years. In 2020 and 2021, I was right. It wasn't great, but it was good enough. I was wrong this year.
Your observation that Heasley pitched the whole game from the stretch is humorous. I was listening to the radio by that time and when he started scuffling a bit in the 4th, Physioc said it was because he was pitching from the stretch and not the windup for the first time in the game. Good to know we're getting a solid picture of the game from the radio broadcast crew!
Of course he did. I knew they would miss that. I mean, I usually see that stuff and didn't notice it, but then I went back and watched video from his last start and, boom, full windup.
There's one "Phys moment" that has always stuck with me, either because it was so absurdly ludicrous or so ludicrously absurd...
Martin Maldonado had just walked. Nobody else was on base. Lucas Duda, bat in hand, was striding toward the batter's box as the next hitter. At that point, Phys intoned "....and now Kansas City can deploy their speed game...."
Oh.
I think they pretty much have to start from scratch in the bullpen next year. They need to consider free agents and trades as the system doesn't seem to be producing many relievers as of late. This train wreck of a season is going to wind miserably to it's conclusion. If Eldred isn't fired, the season ticket holders should revolt. What a horrible organization. Surprisingly, they have a nucleus of position players who will eventually be very, very good. The Royals just can't match them with the development of the pitching side. Free agency and trades are the way to go in that area, coupled with a good pitching coach and bullpen coach.
I don't think they have to start from scratch. As I said to Joel above, I think a bullpen featuring Coleman, Staumont, Cuas, Speier and maybe even Jake Brentz is a nice start. I like Nathan Webb in AA, who was added to the 40-man this winter and just got back to the Naturals. Will Klein could be moving up. They have options. That said, I have changed my tune on paying for relievers. I think in today's game, it's a worthwhile investment. Some issue is it's not a great reliever market, but there's still some guys out there.
But yes, dump Cal and whether he's responsible or not, Larry Carter is going to have to go too.
Good points David. Yes, they do have some pieces to start the foundation of a good bullpen, just not enough of them. Relievers are hard to figure out. They can be good one year, horrible the next, and great the year after that. Some guys find it late in their careers when you think they are all done. I saw Brad Boxberger deliver a very good closing performance for Milwaukee yesterday. He stayed calm, cool and collected.
Sure, Boxberger has had a good year. Like I said, there are options out there. There isn't top shelf closer out there, at least as a free agent, but there are some quality pieces. It wouldn't be that surprising for them to have a good bullpen in 2023 with a couple small moves.
Bullpen’s can be drastically different year to year. If its a reliever or a starter for this team to choose from in FA pile….please go after a starter. They got some starter options….but all 3-5 type starter guys.
I mean, this season has gone so far off the rails that next year everything has a to go right…..right?
Another fun game to watch except for the continued mismanagement of pitchers by the Manager and Pitching Coach. I hope Sherman is paying attention.
Trade deadline thought: I'm going full George Costanza and trying to figure out a way to pry Drew Waters from the Braves. Every contender needs bullpen help. The Braves in particular might want an upgrade in the outfield. Might be a match there.
Oh, and nice last paragraph.
I would love to get Drew Waters, and I feel like it's a buy-lower type situation too at this point, which would be nice.
😃
I was doing some work outside and listened to most of the game. I told myself going into the 8th inning with a 3 run lead that if the bullpen walked 1 or fewer the rest of the game we would win and if it was two or more it was an almost certain loss. Sure enough Mills and Garret walk the bases loaded in the 8th, game over. What I don't get is why not start Clarke in the 8th with a clean inning. He was already warmed up in the 7th behind Mills. The walks have just killed the entire pitching staff, but particularly the bullpen.
My guess is they liked the Mills and Pena matchup and then wanted Garrett for Alvarez and Tucker for the lefty on lefty. Obviously that didn't work, but I don't hate the thought process.
JJ with some interesting comments on the radio Tuesday. Directly contradicting Dayton's claim that "we don't shop our guys, ever" JJ said there are five different people in the front office, including himself, who are "aggressively" staying in contact with people they know in the front offices of other teams. The purpose of that contact is to "know what they are thinking," possibly as a precursor to a trade.
David, you have clearly shown that "we don't shop our guys, ever" is an overstatement - and thanks for setting me straight on that point! The question is, how much of an overstatement? We know that they shop guys in their last year of team control. Is that the extent of it? It would be nice to know.
Regarding Jackson Kowar, JJ said that "the pitching coaches at Omaha" did a really nice job of helping him reshape his fastball, fix some mechanical issues, and improve his change-up. Conspicuously absent from JJ's list of people who helped was Cal Eldred. For whatever that might be worth.
The possibility of going to a six-man rotation came up briefly, but it sounded more like idle speculation than anything else.
JJ also said that they are taking a look at Michael Massey at third base in Omaha. The reason he gave was that Nicky and Whit are both so good at second base. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but to me that doesn't sound like a guy who has much interest in trading Merrifield.
They very clearly do shop guys, but it depends on your definition of shop. They definitely overvalue their pieces, so while it may seem like they have never shopped Whit, for example, they have. They've just asked for the moon. The issue with Dayton, in my opinion, in the past is that while they've shopped, they don't tend to negotiate much. It's what they want or it's nothing. I would imagine based on what I know about JJ that if he's calling the shots, that would be different.
I haven't had the chance to listen to JJ's comments yet, but I will later. And I have my doubts about Massey at third because of his throwing arm, but it's worth a try.
“We don’t shop our guys” is the equivalent of “We expect to win.” Dayton speaks in platitudes. Important to not take him too literally.
For years now, Dayton "loving his own guys too much" has been a recurring theme from several ex-players and media people, some of whom are presumably in pretty good positions to know. (I believe that I first heard that from Mike Boddicker and/or Soren Petro... Or maybe Mike MacFarlane???) Regardless, I really hope you're right about JJ being different in that respect!
That begs an obvious question though: if JJ is different in that way, will it be rendered meaningless because Dayton overrules him anyway?
Or to put it another way: will Dayton permit JJ to make a trade that Dayton himself wouldn't make because he loves his own guys too much?
When the manager takes a gamble on a new pitcher who can't seem to throw a strike and leaves him in until after the Astros beat up on him and score two runs and are in a good position to score more, I'd say that once again, the manager caused the loss.
It's one thing to go 8-7 against a stretch of losing teams. But playing a solid team like Houston shows just how far away the Royals are to being a contender. They keep finding ways to lose. They score six runs in consecutive games and lose both. I'm now of the opinion that they should just trade as many of the veterans as they can (provided they can get something in return) and let the prospects and youngsters play. It certainly can't get much worse. And the offseason priority is to get at least ONE, maybe two experienced starters for the rotation, and an experienced bat who's a legitimate cleanup hitter and can drive in runs, especially in clutch situations. I doubt any of that will happen, but it should.
Watching the first two games of this Houston series got me to reflecting back on 2015. Back then, I believe that the Astros were every bit as good as the Royals. That postseason series could very easily have gone the other way.
Now here we are 7 years later and the Astros are still as good as they were then, and quite possibly better. Meanwhile, the Royals are....well.... the Royals.
If even more obvious proof were required that the Astros way is better, I can't imagine what it could possibly be. Even though we've called up some promising young hitters this year, and there may be a couple more in the pipeline, the question has to be asked: even if all those guys turn out to be everything we hoped for, will watching an endless string of 9-7 losses really be all that much better than what we've suffered through this year?
Or will we be even more frustrated, knowing that we're watching them waste possibly the best years of BWJ and MJ and Vinnie (and maybe others) while we run one AAAA pitcher after another after another out there?
Here's the Royals way: they'll finally acknowledge the immense problems with pitching development and coaching, and barely begin to fix it, just as all those young offensive studs are entering their last year or two of team control. And then another Hosmer-Cain-Escobar-Moose-like exodus will happen over the next couple of years. Meanwhile the Astros will very likely still be kicking ass.
I’m on Dish (for 2 more days), yea, I get to watch the Royals bullpen blow games instead of hearing it on the radio. Listening to game 3 in Houston tonight and had to shut the radio off. Was sick of Pizzer and Stu ramble on with diarrhea of the mouth. They must breathe through their ears because they never shut up. Sorry, I had to get that off my chest. Jerry Gorman