There isn’t, though Pasquantino would make sense if he proves healthy. But good teams who can properly evaluate talent sign guys before the breakout all the time and that helps with cost control on them as well. I’m not saying I’d give Massey a deal today, but if the same Royals who identified Ragans and Velazquez and McArthur determine they think Massey is about to become a .275/.330/.475 guy at second, then yeah, sign that deal. They might be wrong, but as long as it doesn’t stop future moves, they’re going to have to take some risks.
Don’t be fooled as well. The Hunter Dozier move didn’t hurt the Royals at all as they still went out and signed the biggest contract in club history. Please don’t buy into the royals are poor people. Yes, they have limitations like all teams….but a Hunter Dozier deal going south isn’t the end all be all they want you to believe.
This is absolutely true, though I'm not sure the Royals have really put out anything indicating Dozier was stopping them from doing this or that. It's generally been pretty fan-created.
Couple thoughts: Agree with everything you said on what needs to happen from here. The quote that is a little disheartening is the “basically, everything a winning organization should be doing”. I mean, yeah…..It time for this organization to be a winning organization. They have won me over in a number of ways this offseason. Is it all for the stadium? Maybe, but they are finally doing what needs to be done. The steps are being taken. I wanted a clean slate, clean house after DM. It was rough last year. Things look much better now. You are scaring me a little in that the FO gets till 2028, cause I think we are getting to the point of needing results now. I think this year will be 70’s win year. And I think that is ok this year. It’s fine, it’s an improvement over last year. The talent level is better, but it’s still not there. I’ve seen a couple of articles about how the royals farm system is better than being reported. Which is good I guess, but we don’t have anyone else to sign but BWJ and Vinny…so I tend to go with the consensus. So a win this year I think is mid 70’s win and the farm system moving to the mid range in the rankings….(really Blake Mitchell is a big deal and needs to hit..a lot of pressure on a high school kid…but they need a win bad). So I guess long winded question is I think it probably is project 2028….but I’m not sure this FO gets that long right? We are close to wins mattering now.
I didn't say THIS front office gets until 2028. I said the Royals get until 2028. They need to show results in 2024, even if it's just winning 74 games or something.
One of the articles you saw about the system being better was probably from me. It's still bad, but there is legitimate depth in it and this year could still be a success if three guys step up to actually be top-75 level prospects from their current crop.
The whole point here is that the organization has until 2028 to convince Witt to stay here when he renegotiates his deal rather than for him to renegotiate it with his new team if he were to tell the Royals he's opting out after 2030. That might actually put a tighter clock on this current front office because if things aren't heading in the right direction quickly, they'll need to get it there sooner than later. 2028 actually provides a lot more urgency for JJ & Co. than the five years makes it seem.
Cool cool. I agree there is some urgency now from all parties. Which I’ll take.
On the farm system, might have been. Think I saw one on royalsreview or something too. Which is good, take all the information and make a decision. I’m not saying you, but sometimes I think royals fans defend their own…if you will. So if the farm system isn’t great, admit it, fix it, and improve it. All anyone wants. Lol. But depth is important, it’s good that at least it looks like some of that is around even if lacking above average mlb players.
Yeah, I mean my comment came from another team's scout and it honestly surprised me. I'm hopeful the changes they've made in pitching will actually start to show this season at the big league level. It's interesting how fast things can change in a farm system because let's say Blake Mitchell has a great first year, Gavin Cross rebounds and Blake Wolters dominates. All are reasonable. Suddenly, you have three legit prospects AND that depth. I'm not saying it will change that fast, but it could.
Agree completely! In particular the last paragraph. Bobby is a smart guy with an MLB father and smart people around him. He got those opt-outs in his prime for a reason. Prove you can be a quality, consistent, winning Organization or he's out. Still an amazing deal to get done and to have at least 2 extra years of Bobby. JJ, Sherman and Bobby should all be applauded. But now the real race starts. Prove you can Consistently draft, develop and trade for impactful MLB talent.
Speaking of, what do you think of the Kevin Howard hiring and lack of MILB coaching changes?
I would say that I don't know enough about Howard to have much of an opinion, but there are enough people who thought he was a good addition for me to at least like it.
I whole-heartedly agree with signing the guys you have and like the foreseeable future outcome of. I think Garcia should be included in that mix. If Massey picks up offensively and Pasquantino hits at the level he was hitting before the shoulder problems, then Garcia--playing about the same as he has been--is a solid long term choice at third. You get good-to-great offense out of two, hopefully three infielders and passable out of the fourth while fielding a good-to-great defensive group. Lock it down. Use the farm system to supply utility guys who, if they look good, can either replace guys like Massey or Garcia if they're better or be traded. Then focus all of the attention on pitching and the outfield (and making sure Mitchell sticks at catcher). I, personally, believe that pitchers are best used as trade options instead of locking into longer contracts because, with few exceptions, their deals seem to be albatrosses. Pitchers get injured too often to sink long money into. LongISH money, sure, but not more than a few years. Keep that farm system churning with pitcher trades, I say. Of course, that depends on having a good pitching development staff, so hopefully the changes they've made will lead to that!
This is just a personal opinion. But people are way too high on Garcia. There a positives I get, and this isn’t knock on him. But first he needs to be a regular mlb caliber player before we lump him in with BWJ and Vinny. I guess we can say the same with Massey though. Be a consistent regular guy first…then we’ll talk on lumping them in. Don’t want to be a downer…but gotta pump the brakes on Garcia a bit. Lol. Hopefully I’m wrong.
I think I’ve made it pretty clear that I’m one of the low people on Garcia also. But, as you said, Massey also hasn’t done anything to deserve an extension but if you’re looking for someone who you sign before the breakout, he should have been listed too.
You absolutely have been. In fact, you are probably lower than me and not even letting helium get in that balloon (joke Lol). I almost don’t think Garcia is one of the people you extend though. I think that list is Massey, Lynch, or Ragans. Ragans would take some balls, but the reward is high. I think you might be able to extend Lynch for 5th starter money at this point. If you really believe in him yet. And then it is just Massey to me on the infield. Because do you think Garcia is the third baseman in two years for this team? BWJ has SS locked up till 2030. He’s not moving. Garcia is and can be the third baseman for now. But he’s not in a few years to me. Can he add the muscle and swing path and get to 20 hrs? Yeah, I think he can eventually…but I actually would take Massey’s power at third base so there are more options for Massey to me (assuming he could even play third…who knows).
My hope is Garcia comes out hot…..they are able to move him mid way through and everyone is up in arms on how you could move him. That’s the dream situation anyway for me.
The 14th largest deal in MLB history with opt outs that guarantee him tons of money if he falters but allow him to get a bigger deal if he doesn't isn't an over-the top deal that he couldn't say no to?
I mean, sure, it could have been for even more money, but at some point you have to be reasonable and go, "Hmm. Yeah. Guaranteed $300m that I can get out of if it looks like more money is possible later sounds pretty good."
Also, I don't think we can know whether his family is in need of a big payday. Sure, his dad was a big leaguer, but regardless of how much he made/still has (which we also don't know) we don't know if he's willing to let Bobby have any of it and we don't know what Bobby wants to do with his money.
I didn’t say it wasn’t a great deal for him, but it also isn’t a slam dunk. Many players his caliber bet on themselves and he could have easily gone through the arbitration process, made $39 million or whatever and then hit free agency after his age 27 season and gotten a massive deal.
How much more could he have gotten than this by betting on himself, though? It doesn't seem like the difference between what he got and what he could have gotten later is very much and this adds a ton of security now.
If he went through arbitration and made $40 million (just rounding up for a round number) and then goes into free agency entering his age-28 season, I think he could reasonably expect to get $42 million per year for 10-12 years. Maybe even more by then given that it'll be a new CBA with potentially expansion fees added to revenue. He got a heck of a deal, but you could be looking at 14/460 or 16/544. Of course, this is all best case scenario for him, which doesn't always happen, but in the scenario where he's betting on himself, that's what he could be looking at by the team he'd hit free agency in 27/28.
There isn’t, though Pasquantino would make sense if he proves healthy. But good teams who can properly evaluate talent sign guys before the breakout all the time and that helps with cost control on them as well. I’m not saying I’d give Massey a deal today, but if the same Royals who identified Ragans and Velazquez and McArthur determine they think Massey is about to become a .275/.330/.475 guy at second, then yeah, sign that deal. They might be wrong, but as long as it doesn’t stop future moves, they’re going to have to take some risks.
Don’t be fooled as well. The Hunter Dozier move didn’t hurt the Royals at all as they still went out and signed the biggest contract in club history. Please don’t buy into the royals are poor people. Yes, they have limitations like all teams….but a Hunter Dozier deal going south isn’t the end all be all they want you to believe.
This is absolutely true, though I'm not sure the Royals have really put out anything indicating Dozier was stopping them from doing this or that. It's generally been pretty fan-created.
Couple thoughts: Agree with everything you said on what needs to happen from here. The quote that is a little disheartening is the “basically, everything a winning organization should be doing”. I mean, yeah…..It time for this organization to be a winning organization. They have won me over in a number of ways this offseason. Is it all for the stadium? Maybe, but they are finally doing what needs to be done. The steps are being taken. I wanted a clean slate, clean house after DM. It was rough last year. Things look much better now. You are scaring me a little in that the FO gets till 2028, cause I think we are getting to the point of needing results now. I think this year will be 70’s win year. And I think that is ok this year. It’s fine, it’s an improvement over last year. The talent level is better, but it’s still not there. I’ve seen a couple of articles about how the royals farm system is better than being reported. Which is good I guess, but we don’t have anyone else to sign but BWJ and Vinny…so I tend to go with the consensus. So a win this year I think is mid 70’s win and the farm system moving to the mid range in the rankings….(really Blake Mitchell is a big deal and needs to hit..a lot of pressure on a high school kid…but they need a win bad). So I guess long winded question is I think it probably is project 2028….but I’m not sure this FO gets that long right? We are close to wins mattering now.
I didn't say THIS front office gets until 2028. I said the Royals get until 2028. They need to show results in 2024, even if it's just winning 74 games or something.
One of the articles you saw about the system being better was probably from me. It's still bad, but there is legitimate depth in it and this year could still be a success if three guys step up to actually be top-75 level prospects from their current crop.
The whole point here is that the organization has until 2028 to convince Witt to stay here when he renegotiates his deal rather than for him to renegotiate it with his new team if he were to tell the Royals he's opting out after 2030. That might actually put a tighter clock on this current front office because if things aren't heading in the right direction quickly, they'll need to get it there sooner than later. 2028 actually provides a lot more urgency for JJ & Co. than the five years makes it seem.
Cool cool. I agree there is some urgency now from all parties. Which I’ll take.
On the farm system, might have been. Think I saw one on royalsreview or something too. Which is good, take all the information and make a decision. I’m not saying you, but sometimes I think royals fans defend their own…if you will. So if the farm system isn’t great, admit it, fix it, and improve it. All anyone wants. Lol. But depth is important, it’s good that at least it looks like some of that is around even if lacking above average mlb players.
Yeah, I mean my comment came from another team's scout and it honestly surprised me. I'm hopeful the changes they've made in pitching will actually start to show this season at the big league level. It's interesting how fast things can change in a farm system because let's say Blake Mitchell has a great first year, Gavin Cross rebounds and Blake Wolters dominates. All are reasonable. Suddenly, you have three legit prospects AND that depth. I'm not saying it will change that fast, but it could.
Yes, the Royals need to understand they really have about a 4 year window to fix this.
The Royals have made significant hires to bolster their scouting department and analytics! Hopefully, this will translate to better drafts!
Yes, yes, and yes. You nailed it and I sure hope the Royals have this plan.
Agree completely! In particular the last paragraph. Bobby is a smart guy with an MLB father and smart people around him. He got those opt-outs in his prime for a reason. Prove you can be a quality, consistent, winning Organization or he's out. Still an amazing deal to get done and to have at least 2 extra years of Bobby. JJ, Sherman and Bobby should all be applauded. But now the real race starts. Prove you can Consistently draft, develop and trade for impactful MLB talent.
Speaking of, what do you think of the Kevin Howard hiring and lack of MILB coaching changes?
I would say that I don't know enough about Howard to have much of an opinion, but there are enough people who thought he was a good addition for me to at least like it.
I whole-heartedly agree with signing the guys you have and like the foreseeable future outcome of. I think Garcia should be included in that mix. If Massey picks up offensively and Pasquantino hits at the level he was hitting before the shoulder problems, then Garcia--playing about the same as he has been--is a solid long term choice at third. You get good-to-great offense out of two, hopefully three infielders and passable out of the fourth while fielding a good-to-great defensive group. Lock it down. Use the farm system to supply utility guys who, if they look good, can either replace guys like Massey or Garcia if they're better or be traded. Then focus all of the attention on pitching and the outfield (and making sure Mitchell sticks at catcher). I, personally, believe that pitchers are best used as trade options instead of locking into longer contracts because, with few exceptions, their deals seem to be albatrosses. Pitchers get injured too often to sink long money into. LongISH money, sure, but not more than a few years. Keep that farm system churning with pitcher trades, I say. Of course, that depends on having a good pitching development staff, so hopefully the changes they've made will lead to that!
That's a bad job by me forgetting Garcia. He's on the list too if he's not part of a trade.
This is just a personal opinion. But people are way too high on Garcia. There a positives I get, and this isn’t knock on him. But first he needs to be a regular mlb caliber player before we lump him in with BWJ and Vinny. I guess we can say the same with Massey though. Be a consistent regular guy first…then we’ll talk on lumping them in. Don’t want to be a downer…but gotta pump the brakes on Garcia a bit. Lol. Hopefully I’m wrong.
I think I’ve made it pretty clear that I’m one of the low people on Garcia also. But, as you said, Massey also hasn’t done anything to deserve an extension but if you’re looking for someone who you sign before the breakout, he should have been listed too.
You absolutely have been. In fact, you are probably lower than me and not even letting helium get in that balloon (joke Lol). I almost don’t think Garcia is one of the people you extend though. I think that list is Massey, Lynch, or Ragans. Ragans would take some balls, but the reward is high. I think you might be able to extend Lynch for 5th starter money at this point. If you really believe in him yet. And then it is just Massey to me on the infield. Because do you think Garcia is the third baseman in two years for this team? BWJ has SS locked up till 2030. He’s not moving. Garcia is and can be the third baseman for now. But he’s not in a few years to me. Can he add the muscle and swing path and get to 20 hrs? Yeah, I think he can eventually…but I actually would take Massey’s power at third base so there are more options for Massey to me (assuming he could even play third…who knows).
My hope is Garcia comes out hot…..they are able to move him mid way through and everyone is up in arms on how you could move him. That’s the dream situation anyway for me.
Let me clarify, Is Vinny……then big gap…then Massey, Ragans or Lynch. I left Vinny out originally which was dumb.
I think I'm in the boat that anyone other than Bobby, Vinny, or Ragans who breaks out this season you sell high and try to rebuild this farm system.
The 14th largest deal in MLB history with opt outs that guarantee him tons of money if he falters but allow him to get a bigger deal if he doesn't isn't an over-the top deal that he couldn't say no to?
I mean, sure, it could have been for even more money, but at some point you have to be reasonable and go, "Hmm. Yeah. Guaranteed $300m that I can get out of if it looks like more money is possible later sounds pretty good."
Also, I don't think we can know whether his family is in need of a big payday. Sure, his dad was a big leaguer, but regardless of how much he made/still has (which we also don't know) we don't know if he's willing to let Bobby have any of it and we don't know what Bobby wants to do with his money.
I didn’t say it wasn’t a great deal for him, but it also isn’t a slam dunk. Many players his caliber bet on themselves and he could have easily gone through the arbitration process, made $39 million or whatever and then hit free agency after his age 27 season and gotten a massive deal.
How much more could he have gotten than this by betting on himself, though? It doesn't seem like the difference between what he got and what he could have gotten later is very much and this adds a ton of security now.
If he went through arbitration and made $40 million (just rounding up for a round number) and then goes into free agency entering his age-28 season, I think he could reasonably expect to get $42 million per year for 10-12 years. Maybe even more by then given that it'll be a new CBA with potentially expansion fees added to revenue. He got a heck of a deal, but you could be looking at 14/460 or 16/544. Of course, this is all best case scenario for him, which doesn't always happen, but in the scenario where he's betting on himself, that's what he could be looking at by the team he'd hit free agency in 27/28.